Curse

oinkers · Dec 05, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Actually I was replying to oinker's posts, and only said that he "seemed" to want that.

And again, the point still stands. Don't assume what I want unless I actually say it, it's only 8bit ASCII you're reading, not some mystical pink hippo train into my mind.

Your responses make it clear you care about PvP only which is roughly in-line with ANet's actions, so that must be OK somehow. I suppose. Maybe.

Paragons are dead-on-arrival. They're not finding teams in DoA which ANet must have foreseen due to cookie cutter MoF builds and getting into teams elsewhere in PvE is so hard now it's more fun to do something else instead of waiting around.

You'll find more and more people gradually realising this, and Paragons will fade away, perhaps even more quickly than Rits in factions.

You want to play niche supporting roles in PvP? Fine. That simply does not make it a viable class in the long run.

LightningHell · Dec 05, 2006, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Wow, six consecutive posts. Merged.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

Counter example: In the Deep, monks are almost always pure heal WoH/HP pumpers. You won't find bonders or boon prots in that high end PVE mission. RoF? eeesh....

I don't know, one mission doesn't really make it.

oinkers · Dec 05, 2006, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

I don't know, one mission doesn't really make it.

One counter example is all is needed to make people stop making absolute statements, particularly when it's painfully clear they have no experience running monk chars.

You prefer less succint answers? Florid verbiage to make exactly the same point? Maybe that explains the paragon fans love of painfully scraping out +1e on a 10e cost spell.

Lordhelmos · Dec 05, 2006, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Paragons were not nerfed, they were balanced. Paragon Holdway was rediculous in HA prior to the update. There were newbie teams holding halls for 7 consecutive rounds just running a Motivation/Command spam on paragons, they pretty much shut ritualists out of business. Paragons are still a damn good class, and just like dervish they require skill to play. Spamming shouts wont save a party but timing them can take huge amounts of pressure of monks and power the team.

~Unlike Ritualists you cannot kill a shout like you can with a spirit. Shouts are instant effects and unstrippable buffs. A ritualist cannot match that and instead protects in a unique way by creating longer lasting spirits with a radius. Vocal Minority and a few key hexes and wells are the only things stopping a paragon from doing its job. Paragons are still great support and have a different way of functioning than ritualists. Some shouts like Incoming or elites like Angelic Bond can be vital in saving key targets or surviving a spike. I like to think of a command paragon as an SB infuse who doesnt sacc life and instead times a shout to counter a massive enemy pressure attack. Paragons can and still make and break games. If you come out here telling me that paragons are useless you need your head examined. Just look at spells like Aria of Zeal and Song of Restoration. Paragons are great pressure diffusers and save lives on teams. That 8 energy makes a huge difference when your RC prot is out of range of channeling and has barely enough energy to throw on Prot Spirit to save himself.

~From a PvE standpoint, Paragons have great armor and defensive buffs. More people SHOULD be taking paragons in DoA missions because some of their buffs directly counter some of the DoA world effects (i.e. stand your ground! in the foundry). Paragons also have damaging spear attacks and can play party protecter and break key stances like shiro's battle scars with wild throw. Stunning Strike is also a good dazer and can catch casters off guard. Also don't undermind the power of Incoming in PvE. I've seen incoming save fleeting teams hurting from a triple aggro.

~Paragons dont suck, you just have players inexperienced in using them. You cannot judge a potential of a class by the majority of newbie users. Make a paragon and try one yourself. Get a feel for the class and you learn to appreciate its role and understand its workings. I bet half the rants against paragons after the nerf are from non paragon players or HA players that have used nothing BUT the paragon holdway build and never tried to explore the classes other aspects. Paragons have LOADS of potential in PVP and PVE. So no Anet does not hate Paragons.

Kaane · Dec 05, 2006, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

Paragons are dead-on-arrival. They're not finding teams in DoA which ANet must have foreseen due to cookie cutter MoF builds and getting into teams elsewhere in PvE is so hard now it's more fun to do something else instead of waiting around.

I stopped reading here because it's clear you have no frakking clue what you're talking about.

I certainly don't have any problems finding a group.

InfernalSuffering · Dec 05, 2006, 02:07 AM // 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

Come up with a must have build that only Paragons excel in, and not some so-so healing here, so-so armor buff there. Make me a build that's as famous as nukers, or boon prots or meatbag tanks.

The entire problem with this e-conversation is that you just made my point. NUKING is not a build. BEING A MEATBAG is not a build. The paragons excel in that unknown element, that entire team buff that can rarely be stopped. Paragons werent created to be a meatbag or to hurl lightning, fire, or water out of the sky. They were created to buff.

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At least those classes have a FUNCTION. A Paragon has NOTHING that can't be replaced by others doing it BETTER without wasting a char slot.

Paragons

1. don't do melee damage like warriors can, can't rake thru enemies like dervs can
2. can't do AoE like nukers and SS can
3. can't spot heal/split-second infuse like monks can
4. can't mass prot like rits can
5. can't spike damage like sins can
6. can't provide meatbags like MMs can

That's a lot of can'ts.

And monks cant....
1. don't do melee damage like warriors can, can't rake thru enemies like dervs can
2. can't do AoE like nukers and SS can
3. can't provide team-wide buffs like paragons can
4. can't mass prot like rits can
5. can't spike damage like sins can
6. can't provide meatbags like MMs can

YOU CAN DO THE SAME THING FOR EVERY CLASS!

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There's a reason why warriors and eles and monks are still around and outnumber the new professions - the game wasn't really designed with the 4 newer ones in mind and it shows.

I won't say that I dont have a warrior, ele, monk, ranger, mesmer, and necro because I do. But I also know that over the last few weeks I have come to know and appreciate the job a paragon can do for a group. Maybe if you gave them a little bit more of a chance and left your mind not so jammed shut then you would see that paragons arent just yesterdays trash.

B Ephekt · Dec 05, 2006, 02:16 AM // 02:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

One counter example is all is needed to make people stop making absolute statements, particularly when it's painfully clear they have no experience running monk chars.

Who or what is this even directed towards?

LightningHell · Dec 05, 2006, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Who or what is this even directed towards?

I don't know. Probably himself.

Guessing you're commenting about the Aspect of Shadows, monks can function without RoF, they're just a lot worse off. A usual Blessed Light loses what? Prot Spirit and Reversal of Fortune? S/He still gets Blessed Light, Mend Ailment, Signet of Devotion, Gift of Health. Plus whatever secondary skills.

Granted, Prot Spirit isn't what you want to lose.

crucifix · Dec 05, 2006, 03:18 AM // 03:18

this got nicely otu of hand, but let me see if i can make one thing clear: If you play PvE, and you claim that the nerf didn't hurt/ hinder much at all, then the build you are using is shit, or you are just an idiot. If you are PvPer and say that the paragon nerf didn't hurt, then uninstall the game and never play an mmorpg ever again.

in short: if you think the Paragon nerf was inneffective and didn;t hurt anything, then you are wrong.

btw: if you have played an SoR para recently you should know how bad energy is to manage now. the reason that the parawide buffs were remotely useful was because of the spammability of these skills.

Khaunshar · Dec 05, 2006, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Well gentlemen, Paragon since NF release, every elite, Protector of Elona, and 2 out of 4 DoA quests done.. and not regretting it one bit.

Fact is, though, that PvE outside the elite areas, and MAYBE the Raisu Palace/Realms of Torment area, is so easy that it does not matter really whether a a skill has +10, +20 or +42 bonus damage on it.

So, when you are saying PvE, you obviously mean the elite areas, as anything else is simple. If you have trouble beating other content with your paragon, I believe the fault is not the class design, but the playstyle.

In elite areas (I havent been to the Deep with Paragon yet, though) you are right, the specialist classes outdo the paragon at their specialty. Actually, the one single class of an expansion that is NOT beat by their core class competitor is the Assassin for single target damage. All other expansion classes are "hybrids", so to speak.

The recent nerf did not change the gameplay in those elite areas for paragons, and actually not much in any PvE area, simply because these skills that got nerfed are not crucial at all. "Incoming" being the one thats probably the most-used command elite and pretty influential on PvE is still able to do what it was designed to be (catching the initial spike of damage, or covering the gap in a Ritualists spirits etc.), it wasnt blanket protection without gaps before, it isnt now.

Paragons, as Assassins, Mesmers, Ritualists, Dervishes have a place in a group. However, that place is not a must-have. And you ll notice that, aside from Monks in the elite areas (as Ritualist healing has never been accepted, and Ritualists are too few to fill a group with anyway) every class can be replaced.

But, the core classes were there first. So unless an expansion class beats them at their territory, and thus undisputably is stronger than the core classes, it will not be accepted.

Its simply a fact that the GW community in large parts, especially PUGs, did never evolve beyond Sorrows Furnace. Its simply not needed. And when a core, and an expansion class, are tied for power, people take core, 9 times out of 10, as they are more familiar with it.

Paragons fit into every party if used well, but they are required in none. And I believe thats exactly how most classes were designed.

As for useful elites:

In PvE, "Incoming" or Cruel Spear really serve well outside elite areas. Inside elite areas, its a matter of supporting your party, and what aspect of your party you want to buff. Paragons arent overly elite-dependant though, which is a blessing in my book, so IMO Incoming, Hymn of Restoration (is that the name of the elite? I am using the german client) are the best candidates as nice allrounders.

Riotgear · Dec 05, 2006, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

Where did I ever say I was using EF on myself?

"Returning" implies you expect to be using it to recover energy spent. Kind of like how drain enchantment "returns" energy and blood ritual doesn't.

Quote:

In particular, you haven't addressed the small regen, small energy pool lack of hex removers, and underpowered/monotonuous spear line.

You don't need massive regen when most of your energy gain comes from shouts.

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How's does a spear do AoE damage? It doesn't, that's one reason why it sucks.

Being unable to do AOE damage does not make a damage line suck.

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GFTE is very nice to use, although you get shutdown easily with Vocal Minority - with no spammable hex breakers on Paras this is a real downer.

I thought we were talking PvE here? Regardless, complaining about hexes that are really annoying isn't a sign of imbalance. Monks aren't exactly big fans of diversion, shame, backfire, spoil victor, etc.

Either bring some hex removal or deal with it. It's not like shouts/chants have more than one viable counter.

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Plus, GFTE's real strength is in relying on the rest of the party to do damage - hardly a first class skill on its own. OoP or OoD on necros would be even better than this half-thought out line.

GFTE's real strength is that it costs 4 adrenaline and can be spammed for free energy. Just like WY. And of course, this was related to PvE, in that it provides a shout you can spam to keep aggressive refrain up without digging into your secondary.

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I'd go even further to say it's wasted as an elite entirely even in PvP.

You can tell just off of the description that it was designed as a spike-stopper. That's it. You don't need a spike-stopper in PvE. No one should have expected it to be useful in PvE.

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1. Health - inferior in almost every respect, even to Resto Rits running Attuned was Songkai
2. Energy - nerfed. BIPs are still supreme.
3. Armor - nerfed. Only synergistic skill was the lonely WY anyway.
4. Damage - spear line is like poking people with toothpicks. GFTE might still be the best thing going for a Para, but that's neither here nor there when you consider what OoP/OoD can do on necros.

Yes, please ignore that the first three only require one skill slot each. Mending Refrain can be kept up indefinitely on the entire party. BIP is an elite, EF and Aria of Zeal are not. If you need WY's armor buff, just put it on your tank, who is gonna have plenty invested in tactics anyway.

Quote:

None of the builds are must-haves like MMs or nukers or booners.

MMs are simply overpowered in most of PvE, until you hit the level 28 crap, at which point they're garbage. Paragons seem underwhelming because they lack concentrated punch, and because their effects aren't blatantly obvious like Rodgort's blowing up 10 mobs and lighting them on fire, or getting half of your health bar restored by WoH. It all adds up though, and just because you're not getting a light show when it happens doesn't mean it isn't.

Quote:

Counter example: In the Deep, monks are almost always pure heal WoH/HP pumpers. You won't find bonders or boon prots in that high end PVE mission. RoF? eeesh....

Just like I won't put d-shot on my runner builds. Special circumstances are irrelevant to my point.

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

One counter example is all is needed to make people stop making absolute statements, particularly when it's painfully clear they have no experience running monk chars.

I'm not being absolute, I'm trying to show that having one extremely good skill that's basically a staple is an occurance in practically every class. You don't neccessarily "need" aggressive refrain, hell, you're in the back, you could run Frenzy and get away with it. But the point is, being "confined" to put one skill on your bar is ridiculous. Especially when you're "confined" to having permanent +25% IAS, which is about as lame as whining that I'm "confined" to having a 5-energy interrupt that knocks a skill offline for 20 seconds.

oinkers · Dec 05, 2006, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

The entire problem with this e-conversation is that you just made my point. NUKING is not a build. ...

Nukers are a build. The fact you cannot name a decent one to run for Paragons in PvE means you're just messing about.

Quote:

And monks cant....
1. don't do melee damage like warriors can, can't rake thru enemies like dervs can
2. can't do AoE like nukers and SS can
3. can't provide team-wide buffs like paragons can
4. can't mass prot like rits can
5. can't spike damage like sins can
6. can't provide meatbags like MMs can

YOU CAN DO THE SAME THING FOR EVERY CLASS!

You're mad. I fail to see how Paragons can provide comparable healing as a monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

You don't need massive regen when most of your energy gain comes from shouts.

You really dont read do you? I was casting EF on the party monks+eles, not me!

Quote:

I thought we were talking PvE here? Regardless, complaining about hexes that are really annoying isn't a sign of imbalance. Monks aren't exactly big fans of diversion, shame, backfire, spoil victor, etc. Either bring some hex removal or deal with it. It's not like shouts/chants have more than one viable counter.

I almost stopped reading at this point. Have you tried getting into DoA as a Para? It takes ages! Everyone wants monks+eles. Of course I'm taking about PvE. Try telling the monks they have to bring hex removal just to support a Para - you'll get booted faster then Vista off a flash drive.

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GFTE ...
You can tell just off of the description that it was designed as a spike-stopper. That's it. You don't need a spike-stopper in PvE. No one should have expected it to be useful in PvE.

As I was saying, you want to play a niche support role in PvP fine, but the Paragon is practically irrelevant in PvE now. It doesn't make a difference if a Para is in a group or not, he can be replaced with Alesia for the most part.

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BIP is an elite, EF and Aria of Zeal are not. If you need WY's armor buff, just put it on your tank, who is gonna have plenty invested in tactics anyway.

BIP give massive regen and is spammable. EF gives +1 each time shout/chant ends and Aria of Zeal is similarly too conditional and slow.

Quote:

It all adds up though, and just because you're not getting a light show when it happens doesn't mean it isnt.

What I see adding up is ANet's lack of attenton to Paragons. Here's another example - Focused Anger has no casting effect - looks like they couldn't even bother doing the graphics for another so-so paragon elite.

I notice all the people who disagree with me are primarily PvP players with no consideration for PvE. They implicitly agree that Paragons were nerfed, but somehow subjectively claim that it does not make a difference in PvE - truly mind boggling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khaunshar

The recent nerf did not change the gameplay in those elite areas for paragons, and actually not much in any PvE area

I disagree, EF spamming was arguably fun and seen as a great help for the monks and eles. Now you can't use it like before, what other compelling builds exist? WY/GFTE?

Quote:

Paragons, as Assassins, Mesmers, Ritualists, Dervishes have a place in a group. However, that place is not a must-have.en

Finally, it's taken 5 pages to drum this into people. Paragons can be replaced on level par with sins and mesmers. That is how second-class it is. What I'm annoyed with is that Paragons were one of only 2 new classes in NF and only so-so to begin with. Now that they're nerfed, they're even weaker than they started out. ANet keep making new chapters with so-so classes because the game engine only properly supports the original core - everything else has been a fudge on top of the existing attributes.

Absolutely laughable.

Riotgear · Dec 05, 2006, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Yay for triple post. Please learn to use the

button.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

You really dont read do you? I was casting EF on the party monks+eles, not me!

Yes, I do read, you said:

Quote:

Energizing Finale should return 2 energy instead 1 considering its high energy cost and duration. As it stands, it takes up 1 too many slots on a skillbar.

That's it! You didn't say anything else about what you were using it on, and "return" implied you were using it on yourself. You do not make such a statement have merit by changing the context later.

Quote:

Everyone wants monks+eles.

Because people want crap they can understand. Like I said in my last post, it's not exactly obvious what a paragon is doing for you. I brought WY on my barrager back before they nerfed the armor gain, and that constant +20 armor dropped death counts significantly. I doubt anyone actually noticed though, because it doesn't produce the snazzy light show you get from, oh, Meteor Shower.

Go make a build that rapes the place that includes a paragon, and everyone will be copying it.

Quote:

Try telling the monks they have to bring hex removal just to support a Para - you'll get booted faster then Vista off a flash drive.

No, they don't bring hex removal just to "support a para", you bring it because hexes in general are a pain in the ass.

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BIP give massive regen and is spammable. EF gives +1 each time shout/chant ends and Aria of Zeal is similarly too conditional and slow.

BIP is also an ELITE.

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I notice all the people who disagree with me are primarily PvP players with no consideration for PvE.

I didn't know my playing habits were publically-available! Where did you glean this information from?

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They implicitly agree that Paragons were nerfed, but somehow subjectively claim that it does not make a difference in PvE - truly mind boggling.

Who said this where, what? Of course nerfing a virtually unlimited supply of energy had an effect, no one said it didn't. The only thing I'm doing is refuting several of your more-ridiculous statements and attempting to deflate your ego.

jesh · Dec 05, 2006, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubard

come on... they mainly nerfed horribley broken skills. Paragons should remain a team build choice, like including a degen ranger... o

A... what?! What the hell would anyone want that for?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

Fleeting Stability - Pretty useless (not for running)
Signet of Pious Light - Could be put to fairly good use (try one of the best self heals in the game)
Vow of Silence - Horray! I cannot be healed! D: (Think of it as SB with no downtime)
Wearying Strike - Useless (plague touch, avatar of melandru)
Harrier's Haste - Somewhat okay, enemies don't move that much before they die anyway though. (enemy monks kite all the time, last time I checked)

etc etc, I'm too lazy to keep going.
The thing is, I only even listed the absolute worst paragon skills in my last post, even more of our skills have a good, but extremely limited use.
As you can see from my long, out-of-place list, other classes DO have more useful skills. :/

Dervish would probably be the worst one to compare paragons to, as they were made to be good, rather than bad. I agree with you totally, that the paragon just has gimped skills when you put it next to Victorious Sweep hitting 3 targets.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

I'd be insane to run an offensive build without flail. I'd be insane to run a tank build without dolyak sig.

Frenzy. A lot of elementalists use Ether Prodigy, me included.

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Originally Posted by Karmaniac

Since we are discussing about useless skills I'm amazed no one has mentioned signed of aggression before.

1s cast and 10s recast: so basically you gain the same amount of adrenaline as when you throw a spear but no damage. Every 10 seconds. Hey Anet plz gimp this skill before people will find out the awesome power SoA spamming.

I laughed out loud. The only use for it is to keep up your adrenaline between fights.. aka, when your triple meteor nuker is recovering from energy loss. -_-

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

Nukers are a build. The fact you cannot name a decent one to run for Paragons in PvE means you're just messing about.

This is the stupidest thing I've seen on these forums in forever. You deserve a big mushroom stamp collection, Mister Oinkers.

I won't delete my paragon, but I'll be playing other characters for a while before I touch him again.

Spura · Dec 05, 2006, 02:02 PM // 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Well this is quite obvious, but tantamount to complaining that Dual Shot (2s activation, 10s rechrge) isn't good for DPS. It's cearly a spiking skill - this is obvious to anyone who understands the game - so why cry about it?

Ok then show me a good non-elite DPS attack. Bow, sword, hammer, axe are full of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Correct, but they have the advantage of being able to deal damage at range. A paragon being able to deal as much damage as a melee-ranged class would be quite broken, so I fail to see your point.

Why would it be broken? First I fail to see how damage at range is an advantage when the spears are way too easily dodged. Many times I had monk strafe all my spears and only stop to rof team which not only made my damage = 0 but also made me gain no adrenaline. Of course then I started attacking other team members, but the point is with spears so easily dodged, you have the same problems as melee with kiting(that is droping dps to 0), except I've had spears dodged by a crippled target.
You have preconception that ranged needs to deal less damage(and SF elementalists are ranged and they deal as much damage as warriors so that proves you wrong there), because of the rangers. Well the rangers have a way to make arrows not miss and they pack a lot of conditions and interrupt, paragon doesn't.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

they're there to aid the other classes in doing their jobs.

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Originally Posted by InfernalSuffering

They were created to buff.

And what buffs are that, pray tell? ToF, Incoming, everything else is some kind of heal or similar things that you get with other classes. 90% of buffs are inferior crap or need very specific builds to take any advantage of.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

You're right apparently, which is why NOBODY takes paragons into pvp anymore. Oh wait, they actually do... sorry.

In observer mode there's a paragon in about every 15th build.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

Actually, I think you missed my point. The paragon restoration skills are about dumb party heals, though. They're there to alleviate some pressure from the party and the monk's energy bars.

Or just put in another E/Mo or Rit. You know what a lot of teams do now? They just use a third monk instead of paragon and still adren spike is what kills not pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

In pvp any extra damage you get can is useful. Two paragons throwing spear at people under Aggressive actually does an OK amount of damage. I've actually killed low targets by simply spearing them before, quite a few times actually.

Bleh I still think at 9 spear mastery you barely do more than wand. Orb is better spike than that spear of lightning at 9 spear mastery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by B Ephekt

And this ia a valid point because? I find it funny that pvers always feel the need to throw out the "oh it's the new iway" comment whenever a build containts any sort of heavy pressure.

Nice job flagging me as pveer.
The thing is that anyone who would care about your build(i.e. if it became popular) could have easily countered with shields up.

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Originally Posted by B Ephekt

This seriously made me laugh. The obvious draw back is that it's a hex, which can be removed quite easily.
If you're talking about Vocal in a pve setting, then covers won't be an issue. It's not really Anets fault if your PUG monk doesn't have hex removal or you didn't put hex removal on your hero.

You laughed because you don't know crap. Hex is a drawback? So is Pacifism for instance. So why isn't pacifism a hex with duration=rechrage, ward aoe, no drawbacks? Because you can't have that on total shutdown.

You don't even make the effort to think. Currently there is no way to make Vocal Minority stick on paragon in gvg. So it is useless in gvg. But at the same time it totally shuts down paragon in things like pve and ra.
Stop talking crap like my fault cos pug monk or hero doesn't have hex removal. First of all necromancer mobs always have at least 3 hexes also monks don't prioritize removal, this hex hits whole party. And when you are in situation with 2 necro mobs it is impossible to shake the hex.

So what good is current Vocal minorty? Does nothing in HA, GvG but overpowered in Ra and pve. Why do you support this?

It needs to be changed so it is weaker in enviroments with no hex removal and stronger in enviroments with strong hex removal.
5 recharge, same duration, smaller aoe, effect changed to :all shouts and chants used recharge 5 sec longer.

This is plenty strong. Adding 5 sec rechrage to adren shouts hurts like hell. Also 25 sec recharge instead of 20 sec on most energy shouts is hurting too.

martialis · Dec 05, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

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This is the stupidest thing I've seen on these forums in forever.

quack

random.name · Dec 05, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Lets be honest here. If you were starting a group, would you rather have 1 healer and 1 prot monk? or a healer monk and a paragon/rit?

99% of people out there would choose the two monks. At the end of the day that is what is killing the class.

All the expansion chars cant compete with the core classes.

Khaunshar · Dec 05, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

But thats because Monks are too freaking powerful by comparison. IMO, the best party setup for a tough area is 2 monks (heal+prot), 1 protection class (Ritualist or Paragon). You can replace the healing monk with a healing Rit, but right now, nothing can even come close to the defensive power of a Protection monk.

IMO thats more an issue with the entire game balance than an individual class: Monks are the most powerful, important, and defining class in GW, simply because one monk can pretty much undo the damage of 4+ people on his own, and with ZB now, even with barely a scratch to his energy.

crucifix · Dec 05, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khaunshar

But thats because Monks are too freaking powerful by comparison. IMO, the best party setup for a tough area is 2 monks (heal+prot), 1 protection class (Ritualist or Paragon). You can replace the healing monk with a healing Rit, but right now, nothing can even come close to the defensive power of a Protection monk.

IMO thats more an issue with the entire game balance than an individual class: Monks are the most powerful, important, and defining class in GW, simply because one monk can pretty much undo the damage of 4+ people on his own, and with ZB now, even with barely a scratch to his energy.

well, not completely true, but close. It's a bit more conditional than that. Monks are looked at as overpowered because of one reason: the creators of this game had to make them that powerful. Unless anet had decided to give every character class a good self heal without having energy problems (or negative reprocussions of using that skill see: healing signet) then monks wouldn't need to be anywhere near as powerful as they are. But, because we have clear cut character applications and limitations, we ned a class that can hold up a party. If monks were nerfed in general, we would just have a big nuke fight for gvg's, there would be no tactical innovations.

Hella Good · Dec 05, 2006, 05:25 PM // 17:25

The recent changes were necessary. The amount of armor buffs and nrg pumping a Paragon could give the team was too substantial. Remains to be seen if the nerfs were a bit too harsh. ANet do tend to overnerf things.